Systems are living entities and can be viewed as one would think of as a “family”,
When the family breaks up, especially if there are children, then whatever remains still exists as a broken unit and must function as such. It doesn’t disappear or go away.
And there are healthy ways to function as a “broken“ unit. Just as there are also unhealthy ways to function as a “broken“ unit.
But there is no ignoring it or wishing it to go away or pretending that it doesn’t exist.
Therefore, whatever exists after the break up, regardless of whatever kind of system you’re talking about… It will only exist in relation to what existed before the break up.
In terms of developmental evolution, we can think of the notion of “transcend and include”.
To try to do otherwise, will result in another “broken” system.
Thanks for your comment. Marjorie. Fair question. But I am doubtful that the family image fits - even though it makes sense from the Hellinger / constellations point of view. For me what I am articulating here is a scale of disruption that is an order of magnitude above that. Transformation is beyond transcendence.
When the dragonfly nymph leaves the water to emerge as a dragonfly, a whole new system is in place and it doesn't "remember" what it has been, beyond the small part of the system that lays the eggs for the next generation. And the dragonfly is far from broken - it's an extraordinary piece of aeronautical bio-engineering.
You can also look on it in Beck's terms as Change Variation 8. And that is what I believe we need.
And I do see the discernment between a family and systems that you’re speaking about.
And in terms of scaling up, indeed, a family or rather an entire civilization of families is part of the larger scale system.
Perhaps, what I am really trying to share here and maybe not doing it particularly skillfully, is that systems that are broken are not nothing. And they do not just go away because we want something better to emerge.
On any given moment, there will be systems that will be at various stages of growth and can be either healthy or unhealthy or some mix of the two.
It’s not like we ever have a completely clean slate to begin a new.
I understand what you are saying. Completely clean slate - no of course that is not possible. Indeed, the broken systems don't just "go away". But look again at what Graves said about these times, and the danger that there would be massive reductions in population. I am not advocating for that to happen, but for accepting that we are past avoiding it.
So, I think that large-scale replacement and rebuilding from the ground up does mean that a great deal is cleared out. That is the degree of "break" that I am saying we need, and is way beyond what is generally described as emergence. It isn't necessarily comfortable - may be a long way from that. If it is a tipping point, what does it take for us to be as prepared as possible?
Yes, there is that grave danger that there would be massive reductions in population.
However, that has not happened yet.
And there are many right now, as we speak who are forming and acting in necessary resistance to the current systems that appear to be in process of completely breaking down.
It is my understanding, and I could be wrong, but any process of transformation or alchemization is completely dependent on both sides of the polarity, holding the tension of opposites so that something good true, and beautiful can emerge
And there is no guarantee, that in this so-called war that we are currently in that the good guys will win.
However, it seems apparent to me that if one side of the polarity gives up before the fight has even completely begun and resigns itself to being defeated and even speaks in terms that that might actually be preferred or the only reasonable outcome of over population, or that we are past avoiding the inevitable …..the natural processes of transformation and alchemy will be aborted.
One must be willing to fight the good fight. When we speak of “clearing out” or massive reductions of population, it is one thing to speak about these terms in a generalization or a theory, it is quite another to be on the ground at ground zero when it is your own blood and bones and your own loved ones being spoken about as if there is no other alternative and that this is what we must prepare ourselves for.
Certainly, all across the globe, currently and throughout history, peoples have found themselves in places they could never have dreamed would happen in their lifetime
And yet it always has happened and here we are again.
And each time, individuals and collectives have risen to the occasion, and have given their lives to the cause, to the death if necessary.
One cannot reach the simplicity on other side of complexity by preparing for it in advance….
One must actually go through the process of the dark night of the soul by fully engaging heart, mind, body, and soul in the process of the transformation itself .
The preparations that you are making now for a future that doesn’t exist yet, seem futile , if not somewhat arrogant.
Couldn’t these precious energies of time and talent be focused now in engaging in the process itself rather than preparing for an outcome that is not guaranteed one way or another?
As human beings, we have always lived with a danger of complete apocalypse and or extinction…
That is a part and parcel of what it is to be human.
Actually, if you boil it down to an individual rather than a collective, each one must face his or her own mortality, by understanding that we each as individuals owe the Universe a death.
So, naturally, bringing this out to the collective again, the human species also owes the Universe, a death, and that will come when it comes. Perhaps sooner or later, matters not, but that it will eventually come to pass.
Until that moment comes for each individual and for the collective, we also owe the Universe our individual and collective accountability to be that vessel through which Life Longs to Live.
It is not OK to acquiesce to the inevitable….
I am speaking as myself, in this moment of NOW, not as what Graves or others have spoken in the past.
Don’t you wonder what Graves would actually have to say about this moment that we are in right now?
Most likely it would not be the same thing that he said all those years ago.
History can only provide us with so much knowledge or guidance… It is our turn now to do what must be done in this moment.
And we will not do any of this perfectly, of course, but there is no way to avoid actually going through it.
It's not about being defeated. We may be talking of different things. Tides are tides, and they don't care what I think, still less about my commands.
I any event, I believe the same actions are required to prepare for "afterwards" as may often be the ones to sustain ourselves now and minimise the damage..
But the metacrisis is what it is. It's not even about good guys any more. It is about the nature of the systems. They are not good systems and they are not fit for the future. They will need to be replaced. I don't believe that you can fix a puncture while riding the bicycle. So build a different bike.
I have children. I have people I love and care about. Nor do I myself wish to die. But we cannot adapt adequately when we are not acknowledging the conditions.
All that said, what I wrote is merely a point of view. You are welcome to hold a different one.
And I can certainly relate to your point of view, even as I also hold a different one.
In the scenario that I am speaking about, which is not so much of our climate change as it is about the current politics in the United States and elsewhere in the world in which there appears to be a strong, deliberate and malevolent agenda towards authoritarian rule.
And an equally strong developing resistance to that malevolence .
I agree with your assessment to be as prepared as possible, for whatever will exist after these current conditions, regardless of whether we are speaking about climate change or politics or something else perhaps.
In the particular example of the political crisis, currently underway, I suppose, as part of the resistance movement, there is emphasis on preparation for what to do or what to expect afterwards, whether that be complete systems collapse, or whether that be a successful movement of resistance to this attempt to destroy democracy by a secure a locked-in authoritarian regime worldwide.
Since there is no guarantee of a successful resistance movement…
And there really is no way to understand the full consequences of what life would be like in the aftermath of a successful attempt to destroy democracy, then yes, I agree that it is beneficial to be as prepared as possible.
And yet, in this case scenario, there indeed are “bad guys”.
And if they are successful, then all of our preparations for what to do in the aftermath, would likely have to go “underground”.
And yes, I suppose history can teach us how to operate under those kinds of conditions.
Yet, it does seem apparent to me that this would be something unlike anything that has ever happened before.
And I do not believe there is any way to realistically prepare for that kind of apocalyptic moment in time.
Thank you for allowing me to share my point of view and for your generosity in engaging in this conversation.
May we all continue to find the courage to keep on keeping on as we traverse our various points of view together.
Here is another perspective:
Systems are living entities and can be viewed as one would think of as a “family”,
When the family breaks up, especially if there are children, then whatever remains still exists as a broken unit and must function as such. It doesn’t disappear or go away.
And there are healthy ways to function as a “broken“ unit. Just as there are also unhealthy ways to function as a “broken“ unit.
But there is no ignoring it or wishing it to go away or pretending that it doesn’t exist.
Therefore, whatever exists after the break up, regardless of whatever kind of system you’re talking about… It will only exist in relation to what existed before the break up.
In terms of developmental evolution, we can think of the notion of “transcend and include”.
To try to do otherwise, will result in another “broken” system.
In my humble opinion. 😊
Thanks for your comment. Marjorie. Fair question. But I am doubtful that the family image fits - even though it makes sense from the Hellinger / constellations point of view. For me what I am articulating here is a scale of disruption that is an order of magnitude above that. Transformation is beyond transcendence.
When the dragonfly nymph leaves the water to emerge as a dragonfly, a whole new system is in place and it doesn't "remember" what it has been, beyond the small part of the system that lays the eggs for the next generation. And the dragonfly is far from broken - it's an extraordinary piece of aeronautical bio-engineering.
You can also look on it in Beck's terms as Change Variation 8. And that is what I believe we need.
Thanks for your reply.
And I do see the discernment between a family and systems that you’re speaking about.
And in terms of scaling up, indeed, a family or rather an entire civilization of families is part of the larger scale system.
Perhaps, what I am really trying to share here and maybe not doing it particularly skillfully, is that systems that are broken are not nothing. And they do not just go away because we want something better to emerge.
On any given moment, there will be systems that will be at various stages of growth and can be either healthy or unhealthy or some mix of the two.
It’s not like we ever have a completely clean slate to begin a new.
I hope this is making some sense?
I understand what you are saying. Completely clean slate - no of course that is not possible. Indeed, the broken systems don't just "go away". But look again at what Graves said about these times, and the danger that there would be massive reductions in population. I am not advocating for that to happen, but for accepting that we are past avoiding it.
So, I think that large-scale replacement and rebuilding from the ground up does mean that a great deal is cleared out. That is the degree of "break" that I am saying we need, and is way beyond what is generally described as emergence. It isn't necessarily comfortable - may be a long way from that. If it is a tipping point, what does it take for us to be as prepared as possible?
Yes, there is that grave danger that there would be massive reductions in population.
However, that has not happened yet.
And there are many right now, as we speak who are forming and acting in necessary resistance to the current systems that appear to be in process of completely breaking down.
It is my understanding, and I could be wrong, but any process of transformation or alchemization is completely dependent on both sides of the polarity, holding the tension of opposites so that something good true, and beautiful can emerge
And there is no guarantee, that in this so-called war that we are currently in that the good guys will win.
However, it seems apparent to me that if one side of the polarity gives up before the fight has even completely begun and resigns itself to being defeated and even speaks in terms that that might actually be preferred or the only reasonable outcome of over population, or that we are past avoiding the inevitable …..the natural processes of transformation and alchemy will be aborted.
One must be willing to fight the good fight. When we speak of “clearing out” or massive reductions of population, it is one thing to speak about these terms in a generalization or a theory, it is quite another to be on the ground at ground zero when it is your own blood and bones and your own loved ones being spoken about as if there is no other alternative and that this is what we must prepare ourselves for.
Certainly, all across the globe, currently and throughout history, peoples have found themselves in places they could never have dreamed would happen in their lifetime
And yet it always has happened and here we are again.
And each time, individuals and collectives have risen to the occasion, and have given their lives to the cause, to the death if necessary.
One cannot reach the simplicity on other side of complexity by preparing for it in advance….
One must actually go through the process of the dark night of the soul by fully engaging heart, mind, body, and soul in the process of the transformation itself .
The preparations that you are making now for a future that doesn’t exist yet, seem futile , if not somewhat arrogant.
Couldn’t these precious energies of time and talent be focused now in engaging in the process itself rather than preparing for an outcome that is not guaranteed one way or another?
As human beings, we have always lived with a danger of complete apocalypse and or extinction…
That is a part and parcel of what it is to be human.
Actually, if you boil it down to an individual rather than a collective, each one must face his or her own mortality, by understanding that we each as individuals owe the Universe a death.
So, naturally, bringing this out to the collective again, the human species also owes the Universe, a death, and that will come when it comes. Perhaps sooner or later, matters not, but that it will eventually come to pass.
Until that moment comes for each individual and for the collective, we also owe the Universe our individual and collective accountability to be that vessel through which Life Longs to Live.
It is not OK to acquiesce to the inevitable….
I am speaking as myself, in this moment of NOW, not as what Graves or others have spoken in the past.
Don’t you wonder what Graves would actually have to say about this moment that we are in right now?
Most likely it would not be the same thing that he said all those years ago.
History can only provide us with so much knowledge or guidance… It is our turn now to do what must be done in this moment.
And we will not do any of this perfectly, of course, but there is no way to avoid actually going through it.
♥️🙏♥️
It's not about being defeated. We may be talking of different things. Tides are tides, and they don't care what I think, still less about my commands.
I any event, I believe the same actions are required to prepare for "afterwards" as may often be the ones to sustain ourselves now and minimise the damage..
But the metacrisis is what it is. It's not even about good guys any more. It is about the nature of the systems. They are not good systems and they are not fit for the future. They will need to be replaced. I don't believe that you can fix a puncture while riding the bicycle. So build a different bike.
I have children. I have people I love and care about. Nor do I myself wish to die. But we cannot adapt adequately when we are not acknowledging the conditions.
All that said, what I wrote is merely a point of view. You are welcome to hold a different one.
Yes, perhaps we are talking of different things?
And I can certainly relate to your point of view, even as I also hold a different one.
In the scenario that I am speaking about, which is not so much of our climate change as it is about the current politics in the United States and elsewhere in the world in which there appears to be a strong, deliberate and malevolent agenda towards authoritarian rule.
And an equally strong developing resistance to that malevolence .
I agree with your assessment to be as prepared as possible, for whatever will exist after these current conditions, regardless of whether we are speaking about climate change or politics or something else perhaps.
In the particular example of the political crisis, currently underway, I suppose, as part of the resistance movement, there is emphasis on preparation for what to do or what to expect afterwards, whether that be complete systems collapse, or whether that be a successful movement of resistance to this attempt to destroy democracy by a secure a locked-in authoritarian regime worldwide.
Since there is no guarantee of a successful resistance movement…
And there really is no way to understand the full consequences of what life would be like in the aftermath of a successful attempt to destroy democracy, then yes, I agree that it is beneficial to be as prepared as possible.
And yet, in this case scenario, there indeed are “bad guys”.
And if they are successful, then all of our preparations for what to do in the aftermath, would likely have to go “underground”.
And yes, I suppose history can teach us how to operate under those kinds of conditions.
Yet, it does seem apparent to me that this would be something unlike anything that has ever happened before.
And I do not believe there is any way to realistically prepare for that kind of apocalyptic moment in time.
Thank you for allowing me to share my point of view and for your generosity in engaging in this conversation.
May we all continue to find the courage to keep on keeping on as we traverse our various points of view together.
Blessed Be,
Marjorie
Excellent. I am getting as many people as I can to read this.
Thank you.